I stopped reading before I even got halfway through. I never even tried to make sense out of pokemon genealogy using our rules. It would've been like trying to put socks on a whale.

I kind of got the whole point early on...

...Anyway, if you're determined on being SUPER SRS GAIZ then you forget that there are definite rules to fiction.

We live in the mundane world. Everything can be explained by "how". Science is the art of explaining "how" something happens. In the worlds created by fiction, which is powered by comedy, drama, and several other genres, everything is determined by "why". A hero or villain is not killed off by circumstance unless there is a need for it in the story. In science fiction, hovercrafts are not created because the laws of gravity have been bent in the story's universe, the laws of gravity have been bent because there are hovercrafts in the story's universe.

tl;dr the golden rule of fiction is it makes more sense the more it differs from reality, resulting in the MST3K Mantra.

But that's just my opinion.

>>5855
Are you considering stuff from the first few years of the Pokémon franchise's life to be canon, or discarding things from it if it was never brought up again since then? Because if it's the former... well, I don't necessarily disagree with your thesis, but there's a largeish swath of your reasoning that's flawed.

>>5863

Stopping reading before any of the conclusions are reached loses you the right to comment in any way. I don't review books I never finished.

Interesting concept. Although it doesn't make sense and doesn't really explain much, still interesting. I'd rather eschew cross species fertility and whittle a lot of it down to breading habits and sexual characteristics and simple metagaming mechanics. Most would say that is non-canonical. However, in a sense, so is what you posted there as well.

The truth of the matter is, no one really knows where the eggs come from. The official explanation quite literally is that they pop up out of nowhere. May as well be via magic, 'cause fuck if Nintendo/GameFreak/Pokemon Inc is going to confirm anything.

So none of the father's genes are passed, just his powers? Magic is kind of an equation breaker. You can reason anything you want if you factor in a variable for which you haven't defined any rules.

>>5868
You know where eggs come from? Attempting to make a breeding system that will fit on a Gameboy cartridge, that's where.

>>5874
Pokemon are all descendent's of the noble platypus.

>>5875
Still ignoring mew, I see.

>>5874

I thought it was to prevent players from having to have a massive fusion chart with a mathematical system à la Megami Tensei so that 9 year old kids could access it.

Clearly there is a legendary invisible stork pokemon.

>>5878

inb4 it's captured by a 10-year-old.

>>5870

That only doesn't make sense if you continue to apply the rules of DNA to the Pokeverse. Again, that entire entire could be irrelevant. A Pokemon's powers could be completely separate from the "genetics".

So tell me. Why are there (presumably) internal combustion engines but (barring that one episode) no mention of firearms, or weapons for that matter of any sory?

You can't just bar one episode simply because it didn't air/was edited in the united states because of guns. There are cars and guns in the pokeverse... along with giant airships who's designs defy all laws of structural design unless they've filled the entire damn thing with flotation systems.

>>5880

They mention DNA several times in several, if not all, of the mediums in the verse. What say you now? Just admit it, you really didn't think through this.

>>5886

I did consider that, but it becomes very plain that "DNA" in the Pokeverse is only the same as ours in name (and possibly form, definitely not function) with only a cursory examination of heredity in the Pokeverse, which defies everything we know about biology.

>>5883

Guns aren't exactly useful in a world where Pokemon are living, thinking death machines if commanded to kill. The Warden could have carried it as a status symbol or as a symbol of his job (safari = gun).

>>5892

Everything you said right there makes me want to punch you in the face. Everything.

there is at least one officer jenny with a gun, probably more.

surge is said to have fought in a war.

"Swords Dance". it wouldn't be called that if swords didn't exist.

>>5895
agreed

>>5895

hurr expecting biology to work the way you think in a thread about why biology doesn't work the way you think

>>5899
But you're the one applying our biological and scientific standards to that very world...

>>5900

I am using three rules, proven by canon, and backed by some evidence from a handful of sources. Using facepalm faces in an attempt to look witty on an imageboard gains you no credibility and just makes you look like an ass.

The scientific method applies because it's grounded in logic, not empiricism. Logical conclusions from proven premises are valid until proven otherwise.

And the "using the same word for a different concept because it's more familiar" argument is a common one in fiction; we use it in the Star Wars community all the time. They're not going to make up a new term for genetic material. They will use the term DNA. Nevertheless, it does not function as our DNA does, and we cannot assume that it follows any rules that we can't prove in-universe.

I don't even think he knows what DNA is anymore. Let's just leave him be.

>>5901
>The scientific method applies because it's grounded in logic, not empiricism.
It's grounded in fiction. If you claim that no rules of biology apply to our world, why would there be evidence supporting the application of our form of logic?
Also, referencing the way in which someone makes their posts in an attempt to look witty on an imageboard is no way to have an argument, and we will not have it here.

>>5901
No they're not. No it's not. Someone please ban this motherfucker.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment.

As much as I want to kill this fucker, why should we ban him? After all, while his theory is absolutely retarded and most likely in no way correct, it still is a semi-valid theory.

#386: The DNA Pokémon
Clearly, DNA exists in the pokémon world, this being merely one example. Now let's remember, shall we, what DNA is: DeoxyRibonucleic Acid.

It is very specific in how it functions, particularly when it comes to heredity and such. You cannot simply say that "they have DNA in the pokémon world but it works different" and get away with it. DNA doesn't "work" any other way than exactly as it does in the real world.

If you really want to take things seriously, rather than just throw out things that disagree with your own theory, consider this: species interbreeding simply does not work. Even species so closely related that their DNA is less than one percent different will not produce fertile offspring. Therefore, the fact that pokémon are capable of interbreeding would suggest that from a biological standpoint, every pokémon is in fact a single genus differentiated by a number of factors.

This may be extreme, but let's go along with this idea: if the creature born is always the mother's "species" of pokémon, then perhaps what type of pokémon an individual will be is tied to the X chromosome. In fact, it might be a stretch, but perhaps a lot of the issues of heredity for pokémon could be solved by assuming that many of their phenotypes are tied to the X- and Y-chromosomes.

It could also allow an interesting explanation for Ditto as well; The first place we ever find Ditto is in the abandoned lab on Cinnabar, where we also read about the experiments that gave birth to Mewtwo. Perhaps the Team Rocket scientists discovered this information and created Ditto by creating a creature with literally no coding for its species, leaving it little more that a gelatinous blob with the potential genetics of any pokémon, ready to take on the form of any genetic material it comes into contact with.

The discovery or creation of new species could simply be adaptations of existing phenotypes to cope with new surroundings which, over time, become more dependent on genetics and less on physical adaptation, creating divergent evolutions or new "species" altogether.

Any thought on this idea?

>>5911

This one makes sense. Don't agree with it, but I most certainly like this one.

This will probably be my only post outside /canalave/...but I couldn't help but feel I needed to say something. I don't understand why everyone has to become so pragmatic about everything. Isn't a little mystery and mysticism a good thing? Isn't that what makes Pokemon so interesting?

>>5911

Just as an aside, you do realize that Deoxys could be called "The DNA Pokemon" because he's unique. Note that he can't breed, and he's from outer space.

If Pokemon could all breed together because they're the same genus, why do you never see any hybrids? We get mutts with dogs all the time. Also, why can only some species breed with each other, and why do we never see non-fertile offspring?

(Also, this thread is a case study in "me too"-ism, going from "somebody cap this" to "hurrrrr" in a sudden shift)

Also, the entire concept of a fiction using terms we use in the real world for similar but not identical things in their fictional universe is explored in all kinds of fictional universes, especially ones where all language seems to be auto-translated (see: Star Wars, where they speak English, but Galactic Basic is actually a very different language with very different rules).

>Read thread.
>Contemplate
>Realize it's a damn game, and I shouldn't worry too much
>>/smeargle/12210
>Move on with my day

Step 1: Read all of the guy's theory(Can also be replaced with waste 20 fucking minutes of your life)
Step 2: Reflect on how much of a waste of time that was
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Decide Mefached is a fucking idiot

First off, let's be honest here. *Anything* we say or argue on this side of reality is going to be speculation; the scientific method is impossible to apply to a fictional world, since you can't go out and do experiments that weren't in the game to begin with. The best we can do is make like Aristotle and throw some hypotheses around.

Second off, to make the argument that I was fishing about earlier: you postulate that Pokémon biology works according to Pattern X, and then expand that to humans by noting that "there aren't any other animals". Now, I'm not going to comment on the first part. I'm not a biologist, and in fact have very little understanding of how those mechanisms work, so trying to apply either new or old systems to it is something I don't wanna get into. But the second part? The part about "there aren't any animals"? Well... canon says otherwise. There's bugs - not bug Pokémon, but *bugs* - because Misty is scared of them and Ash points out that a Caterpie isn't technically an insect. There's mongooses (mongeese?) because the Gastly of Maiden's Peak turns into one to scare Jessie's Ekans. And if you go to the games, you have the SS Anne's chef preparing "Salmon du Salad", "Eels au Barbecue", and "Prime Beef Steak". Sure, they get mentioned less than they used to, but unless you're going to declare Discontinuity on everything published in the first couple years of the franchise, you don't get to go back and say "there's no such thing as regular animals".

Third, just as an aside? I have no bloody clue why all of you are getting so ragefaced over this.

>I have no bloody clue why all of you are getting so ragefaced over this.

>>5935
Still coming down off of finals. I haven't drank enough yet to fully derage.

>there are no ordinary animals in the Pokemon universe

>>5938

Plus in the show there are normal fish shown occasionally.

Pokemon are just a more dominant species, due to magic powers.

>>5947
Just watch, by Gen VII, every instance of non-pokémon animals we have ever seen will be accounted for by new pokémon that just happen to look exactly like the different "regular" animals from the show/manga.

>>5952

This is exactly my point, and retroactive continuity applies.

>>5960

Wouldn't it be easier to assume that the current, non pokemon animals are either evolving into pokemon as time goes on or going extinct to their pokemon counterparts?

It's not that they don't exist at all, it's just that they won't exist for much longer.

>>5960
Even in FR/LG there's references to - for example - Indian elephants in the Pokédex entries. The frequency of mentions seems to be going down, but I'd not say it's dying out completely.

Also, on a slightly different note.

>>5883
My guess here is that human weapons (guns, etc) are a cultural taboo. Look at, for example, the myth of the Knight of Veilstone - guy gets sword, guy is stupid about how he uses sword, guy learns lesson and throws sword away. The Safari warden had guns, but he's an exception (and not exactly "normal" from a mental PoV anyway - remember that in Japanese culture, such a guy having a gun collection would already be unusual).

>>5962
Also aren't firearms banned in Japan?

>>5965
Pretty much. You can own a single-shot rifle or a shotgun if you're using it for hunting, but everything else is restricted to the military and law enforcement.

>>5966

Remember. Where ever firearms are banned, there is a large criminal element with them. Unlike their western counterparts, however, they rarely ever use them.

im expecting this to be a glitchy post

>>5935
I was really wondering that while reading through the thread.
People being somewhat related to pokemon, really wasn't that bad of an idea and considering aura and such,and in turn it could lead to some speculation with Ash's father which is always fun.
Lucario anyone?

I think it's impossible to avoid some arguments in a thread like this, but try and avoid arguing about the rules as defined in the OP. They kind of define the purpose of the thread.

I think that to properly understand a fictional work using real world structure as a comparison point requires one to assume that the fansty world has it's own separate laws that are, at best, coincidentally similar.
For instance: Pokemon DO have DNA, however, it doesn't function like DNA in our world.
There ARE humans in the pokeverse, but as mefached said, they are part of the pokemon (vs animal) kingdom.
If we look at the subject while considering that it has independent rules, it is possible to compare it with our world, but never reconcile it.
I think an interesting conversation point would be try to define the structure of the pokeworld based on what we know about it, without trying to fit into our natural laws.
Consider the 'element's in pokemon. They affect a pokemon's range of moves, their appearance, and their location. Perhaps the elements are a way of defining function based on environment. Or perhaps there is a platonic set of physical rules that have both the pokemon and the natural world exhibit phenomenon (Fire moves, grass growing, swimming ability, density) as a direct manifestation of the elemental "substance" from which they are constructed.

Suddenly GOD appeared and fucked everything up. And that's how we explain Pokéscience.

>>6135
but... but "history goat did it" is boring :(